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There was a discussion on the server this morning referring to why bHop is restricted here, and why.
It started with this(from the condump):
leidenfrost: snipers are a lot more dangerous here cause no bhop
Then.... this:
leidenfrost: can you tell me what bug i need in my brain
leidenfrost: to want to try hard here
[d2f]Iggy: Sure..... Disregard bhop, and everything falls into place.
[d2f]Iggy: Don't use bhop as a crutch. It's an anti-skill, if you look at it.
<drippy> the bug to figure out a strategy to get a flag without relying on twitch skills, as is the intent of tf in the first place
All the while, Drippy-, "Random Lamer", and myself were trying to explain things to him. He seemed like a nice guy, no "spewing hatred" on the server or anything... just seemed to think that bhop was needed to balance out the gameplay.
My point was that being a bhopper, he couldn't adjust to capped bhop play. That meant that his other skill set was quite dependent on being able to out-run those shooting at him. As a non-bhopper, I can adjust to the bhoping gameplay on other servers.
It was difficult to play, and type at the same time. As the round ended, leidenfrost dropped, which is a shame, since I was going to point him here for a more in depth discussion on it.
If any of you know him, or see him in the game again... point him here. It's much easier to discuss things without being shot at, protecting your flag, and all kinds of explosions going off around you. :)
Frankly, I love the server the way it is. You can still get movement bonuses, but not be so advanced that people who just bought the game think you're cheating and quit.
I'm not going through the whole condump... but wanted to get things started. I put it here, because it pertains to the server... and to keep you mooks semi-respectful at one another. ;) | |
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Spoofer
Super Regular
WMD Creator
| | P: | 07/13/2016 18:27 EST | | E: | 07/13/2016 18:47 EST |
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(Spoofer post)
I've made my opinions well known on this in the past, but I guess since you're making it a topic again... XD
Drippy's right in that TFC emphasizes movement, strategy, and ingenuity to reach the flag more than twitch skills, which is exactly what distinguishes TFC from games like CS or CoD and what not.
I still don't understand why you think of BHop as a "crutch". If I mentally tally all the best players I know of on the server, pretty much every single one of them already bhops up to the server's 130% cap. They're doing it, they're just limited in how much it does for them (and even at 130%, it's still quite useful for the 300+ speed classes). Even if they weren't though, they still exhibit that advanced degree of skill in most other aspects of their play as well. Because that's the thing about people who can bhop. 95% of the time, they've built up their movement techniques along with all other skill sets in the game. You're usually simply seeing the difference in the types of players who consistently want to improve their game with those who are more willing to stay at their present status quo and not expand themselves.
As Drippy seemed to be implying though, Quake and games inspired by Quake (including Team Fortress, TFC, and Fortress Forever) have come to be defined by movement techniques and speed (Scout and Med being the two O classes due entirely to their speed and versatile movement techniques). Rocket jumping was originally an unintended movement technique. Same with concs. Same with nade jumping and everything else. BHop is simply another of Quake and TF's many bugs that turned into gameplay-defining features. It's long been accepted by the Quake and competitive TF communities, as it adds a whole ton to the game without breaking anything. That is, ever since Valve stepped in early on and deliberately chose 170% as the hard cap, as that was the exact value necessary to keep a BHopping HWGuy just short of a running Scout. That was their informed balancing decision made on the matter, and ever since then, it became a mandatory skill to learn for competitive and league play. There's nothing cheap or "crutch"-like about it, as it became the norm for high-level players, and it served to speed up and increase the skill ceiling of the game (mastering bhop, mastering evasion, working it into O patterns, everyone having to adjust their twitch speed prediction and aim to account for the faster movement speed, etc.) for everyone, which is what high-level players thrive on. I personally have so much more fun playing D against Epz and Brah and others who have mastered bhop and movement than those who just run straight at me and remain easy targets.
I've said this before, too, but D2F attracts more casually-minded players than some of the other servers. Drippy's decision was more in line with those sorts of players, to even the playing field for all those unwilling to step their game up (as well as problems with communication during many games). I'm not knocking those players, as 15+ years later they still find enjoyment in the game and support this community, and they're having fun the way they most feel like having fun. Throwing top-tier bhopping veterans against them would probably be too discouraging. Epz and various other O players already blow through most players on this server simply because of the difference in skill levels and/or dedication, and allowing an extra 40% would widen that gap even further. But it absolutely seems to be a measure taken to cater to the weaker demographic rather than a statement on bhop's legitimacy itself.
All that being said, I would bet money (well, not literally, as I just blew all my dough on a PC that'll actually give me more than 40 FPS ingame) that I could set a player up and teach the fundamentals to get them on the path to mastering bhop within half an hour or so. It's not a hard skill to learn with the right setup and the right instruction, and it's the backbone of higher level play in TFC.
It's not even bhop itself which most of the players on this server could stand to learn, but simple air strafing principles. The amount of players on this server who telegraph themselves running off the deck for good Snipers to pick off is off the charts, when all they need to do is learn to stop holding forward 24-7 and learn how to properly air strafe. Air strafe is the key to TFC, in evasion, in concing, in HHing, and in bhop.
Anyway, Iggy, lemme teach you bhop. =p | |
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Reckoner
Super Regular
Crack-Powered Capper
|  | | P: | 07/13/2016 20:24 EST |
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Ey guys... (semi-related)
This thread sparked something in me, ^__^ - So I want to learn how to bhop. Though I will practice it solo on my own, looking for some tips here and there...
Started practicing in Half Life 1 just now on some downloaded bhop maps. http://gamebanana.com/maps/cats/8413
Half Life 1, cuz I watched some crazy speedruns of the first Half Life 1 game. >:p https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY
Also found a few TFC bhop maps. https://www.tfcrefugees.com/resources/categories/bunny-hop.3...
Any other settings that need to be changed (in singleplayer)?
sv_airaccelerate 100
sv_maxspeed 10000
sv_gravity 800
Is the spacebar enough for jumping or do I really need to bind it to my mousewheel-up/down or something? :p
At some point just crouch jumping and wallstrafing ain't gonna cut it (on this server). x__x Also looking to improve certain conc timings, but that's for later. I feel like on 2fort there aren't really that many situations that can be abused with concs, as opposed to a map like Well (obviously). | |
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Nookie
Super Regular
Shotgun Quick
Draw
| | P: | 07/14/2016 01:58 EST |
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if its your own server you should try and find that _special script (bad word here, i know!" and use that so you don't have to worry about the timing just yet and only worry about movement instead. | |
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Spoofer
Super Regular
WMD Creator
| | P: | 07/14/2016 02:57 EST | | E: | 07/14/2016 03:34 EST |
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Since this topic seemed to turn around pretty quick, I may as well offer my knowledge on the subject for those wanting to learn. XD Not like learning will let them bypass the D2F speedcap, after all.
_special was patched out by Valve in the string of 2013 updates, IIRC, so those scripts can't be used anymore to practice or otherwise. You could probably use some outside program to automate key presses, but as Valve specifically stepped in to curb such a thing within their own engine, I wouldn't feel comfortable recommending relying on such a thing either. I mean, it really doesn't make a huge difference between holding a button and learning the timing, as the timing is the easy part anyway and the art of bhop comes from the player's movements, but still.
Those server commands aren't gonna do you any favors for TFC. IMO, no point getting used to higher air acceleration when every playable server would have default values (and I don't think changing the value is legal in most HL speedruns?). I don't think sv_maxspeed even does anything over TFC's hard class cap (or in HL as well? idk), so that's useless as well for bhop.
Most importantly to be able to easily bhop, you'll want higher FPS. Disabling vsync (gl_vsync 0) allows your FPS to bypass your monitor's refresh rate (and also eliminates quite a bit of input lag, so you're better off disabling it anyway), and fps_override 1 allows you to set your fps_max over 100. The higher the better, but anything 60 or over would probably be fine; you'll just get better speed increases through air acceleration and lose less speed on the ground with higher FPS. My FPS typically dips as low as 10-40 as I mentioned earlier (don't even ask how that's possible in 2016), and I definitely have to give up bhopping on the bridge or any other spammy situation because it's not practically possible at those levels. The worst thing you could possibly do is increase your fps_max but leave vsync enabled, as that makes the game go full retard as far as bhop goes.
Anyway, the tradeoff to high FPS is that you need to have quicker reactions jumping as soon as you hit the ground in order to avoid losing speed. It can be done with the default space key with practice, and mousewheel does offer an advantage, but most people just use a good jump buffer to offset the higher timing requirements. I bound my +jumpBuffer to mouse4, since I find it easier to concentrate on strafing with my left hand while leaving aiming and bhop timing to my right; it just feels more natural to me.
The jump buffer could look like this:
 | alias jump "+jump; wait; -jump; wait"
alias +jumpBuffer "jump; jump; jump; jump; +jump; wait"
alias -jumpBuffer "-jump"
bind space "+jumpBuffer" | |
The amount of "jump"s in "+jumpBuffer" will depend on your FPS, so it's important to set your fps_max to your highest stable value and then add as many "jump"s in that work for you. The more you add, the more "wait"s you're adding, and those lock out all other input on your end until the script completes itself, so you want to strike the right balance. You can test how high the delay is by jumping and then immediately firing your weapon and seeing how much longer it takes to actually fire. 3 to 4 jumps is what I used to use at 120FPS, which gives me about a 50 to 67 millisecond buffer (6 or 8 wait commands / 120 frames). It's a rather low buffer compared to what most people use for bhop timing (low enough that I can bhop while priming the AC as HWGuy, which has fairly tight timing). When you start out learning, throw as many "jump"s in there as you can, really, without making too huge of a delay while firing your weapon. You can always cut it back as you get better at bhopping.
So anyway, that's really all you need for setup (or rather, all that I recommend for setup, as a good bhopper can do so even at default settings). The other obvious thing is that you want to be able to easily strafe while moving, so holding "f" and "g" for grenades is going to hold you back as well. Either assign them to your mouse or make them two-touch so you don't have to waste a finger constantly holding them, like so:
| alias gren1 "throwgren; primeone"
alias gren2 "throwgren; primetwo"
bind mouse5 "gren1"
bind f "gren2" | |
(I used my own keys just to show what setup works well for me.) | |
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Spoofer
Super Regular
WMD Creator
| | P: | 07/14/2016 03:21 EST | | E: | 07/14/2016 03:24 EST |
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As far as learning bhop (for Reckoner or anyone else interested in learning), I find that most people out there do a terrible job of teaching it. I wouldn't mind showing people in person, or maybe I could record some demos or something. Not tonight though, as it's late, and I want to concentrate on building me new PC anyway. Maybe I can put something together tomorrow.
But anyway, the most important thing for a player to learn about TFC movement, is you basically never want to be holding "+forward" while in the air. It doesn't actually help your velocity any, and all it does is hamper your ability to properly air strafe. So the first step is learning to break that habit, and you may as well do so while learning your jump timing.
So how I like to teach it, is to load up Well, and have people start at either wall of the yard parallel to the canal. Stare at the opposite wall, run forward, jump, then let go of forward for the duration of the exercise. Just keep hitting your jumpBuffer as you hit the ground, and try to get the timing right so that you lose as little speed as possible with each jump, and see how far you get. Once you get the hang of it, you could reach the opposite wall without holding forward or pressing anything other than your jumpBuffer. This illustrates how you retain your speed so long as spend as little time on the ground as possible, so the next step is learning how to gain speed.
I can explain that tomorrow, but really it's just about strafing and moving your mouse in the same direction at an even rate (similar to air strafing while concing), so some of you guys probably already know how to do it without realizing it.
Oh, one last thing: https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=702520?p=7025... has a speedometer server plugin for AMX Mod X (or just AMX? idk), if you have that stuff or are interested in installing it for your own listen server. I think there are still some public TFC servers running the speedometer as well, if you try randomly joining some of them to find it. The speedometer will definitely help you learning how best to gain and maintain speed, as well as staying below the class speedcap. | |
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Okay.... let me put my thought another way:
I've seen people who bhop very well, and can easily outrun the tracking of an SG. Even as a Heavy.
Put them in the same situation here, and they fail to adapt to the change in environment. Since they can't out run the SG's tracking, and they aren't able to counter that fact, they die before even touching the flag. Then they rage on the server, when it's their own limitation that caused their demise.
That, is because they're used to it a certain way, and simply can't adapt to a different situation. Granted, this is a game... but that also plays into real life. If something happens you're not prepared for, and you can't adapt to it, you're in trouble.
I have nothing against bhopping.... and you did mention that it opens up the skill difference between veteran players and newbies. Most of todays gamers like shiny things... and digital hats. They want to start a game and pwn it on their first go. TFC just won't bend that way. Hell, Half Life won't bend that way, even on Easy.
So yeah, the server gives enough enticement to learn more, while not discouraging those who may actually like the game... nor inhibiting those who are longtime players and able to adapt.
There's a reason so many of us play here..... either because of, or in spite of, the Bhop cap. Because it's freakin' FUN here.
Oh, Spoofer... you're not the only one who's been experiencing FPS drops.... I have, too. Tell me... do you allow your computer to enter "sleep" mode, or even "turn off video" in your power settings? I had, but then turned that mess off. Yesterday, I was having great FPS rates. | |
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-[IBSC]-iLluSiON-
Daycare Manager
Killer Scout
| | | P: | 07/14/2016 10:30 EST | | E: | 07/14/2016 10:31 EST |
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"Random Lamer" checking in.
I'm glad Drippy's caps bhop. I think it makes it more challenging from an Offensive perspective.
As we discussed in server, there is a skill behind bhoping, though people certainly tend to rely on it too much. I'm not going to add much more, other than I'm glad this server is anti-bhop. | |
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Nookie
Super Regular
Shotgun Quick
Draw
| | P: | 07/15/2016 00:22 EST |
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bhop hax! load up well and toss on 0 gravity works also, then you have to get moving using the strafing keys because w will get you nowhere quickly | |
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Be a heavy on well and jump across the moat to practice getting the twitch and mouse movement right on the first hop | |
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XenOz3r0xT
Super Regular
Shotgun Quick
Draw
| | P: | 07/18/2016 02:12 EST |
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| Spoofer wrote:
As far as learning bhop ......I find that most people out there do a terrible job of teaching it. | |
Just like Organic Chemistry...har har har. | |
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I don't know how to bhop, but I enjoy sniping on those servers (hunting wabbits). This topic demonstrates how special the sniper is as a class. I have done more than just give bhoppers a hard time, sniping like it was 1999. Not using any script or bhopping or whatever it is the 'pros' use. To be fair, I have also got my ass handed to me plenty of times.
But, I think the sniper transcends the topic of bhopping, because some will have the skill level to hit bhoppers despite their best movements. And some can probably still own the game.
Snipers bring balance and resolution to the war between bhoppers and non-bhoppers.
.. Bhopping has its place, but its nice to have a server without hwguys flying around. Drippy's offers a place for people who don't want to put up with that mess. | |
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Wisdom
Super Regular
Dizzy Capper
| | | P: | 07/18/2016 20:29 EST |
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I keep waiting for the day that the other active server tries to ban me. I get accused of cheating every time I play in there.
Just because you have bhop doesn't mean I won't cap your ass. | |
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You probably wont get banned, but there is no tellin'
If you are ever up late there is another active server called Funtown (I think it is bhopping too, but not neo-tf). Those admins definitely wont ban you. I recommend it for anybody who wants to have a serious game of Avanti or something non-2fort. | |
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Reading the responses on this thread make me happy B Hop is capped.
Its too much of a phyisics and game mechanics exploit IMO. | |
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| | | Forums > D2F Discussion (Archives) > Bhop capped..... | |
