|
 | Sniper side respawn | |
|
| | |
| | |
I'm sitting here waiting for my pain meds to kick in, so I thought I'd address something that's probably been going on for quite some time.
Sniper Side Respawn, and the rules surrounding this area, or more accurately, the interpretation there-of.
*THIS IS MY INTERPRETATION ONLY, AND SIMPLY A GUIDELINE TO HELP YOU OUT. YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY WITH OTHER ADMINS AND/OR DRIPPY-.*
From the FAQ:
 | 2.8 - What constitutes respawn spamming/camping?
There is no fine line for someone to walk on this rule. The general rule of thumb is to not try to get cheap kills from people spawning. We want to provide protection from people sitting outside the spawn door with a pipe trap, but at the same time not allowing people to run into spawn to hide every time they might get killed or infected.
Accidents happen. People will get killed right outside the spawn with a grenade primed. People will toss a grenade at a sentry to have it bounce off an enemy's head and to the spawn door.
There are legitimate reasons to spam the spawn as well. A streaking or statwhorish player may be playing out of (hugging) the respawn, in which case attacking them there is really your only chance of killing them. The same is said for sniper spawn, as this gives people permission to jump up and hunt them down (so long as they arent spamming all their grenades trying to get cheap kills from other people). Explicitly allowed is one spy grenade, as it makes a team paranoid about spies and reduces their effectiveness. Spamming 4 gas nades at the spawn is trying to get cheap kills, however. Even if this is a team effort (one gas gren per spy), having more than two gas grenades there is trying to get cheap kills and whoever adds to the spam is guilty. | |
The same rules apply to the "Dropdown" as they do for the main respawn exit. The "Sniper Deck door", however, is considered "camp/spam" allowed, as there is another way out(the dropdown).
There have been a lot of reports lately of "spawn kills". Some that are justified, and some that are not. I'm writing this to help clarify what is and isn't legal.
For those who like pictures, I've got a couple. Let's look at them, shall we?
(Please note: I used Demoman for the pics, but it counts for other classes as well)
http://i.imgur.com/6wnJLHZ.jpg
The "Sniper Deck door" is legal to camp, spam, or whatever. Typically, Snipers will be in this area, and think they have a "safe area" to run into. That is NOT the case. If they open that door, you are perfectly free to chase them in. Once you are inside, however, the "Cheap Kills" rule comes into play.
"Cheap Kills": Killing freshly spawned player(s) before they are legally "in play"(out of respawn). Accidents happen, as do "collateral kills". The word "intent" comes to the forefront here.
"So, I chased a Sniper inside. What are my options so I don't get in trouble?"
You may attack and kill the person you chased in ONLY. One frag grenade, and your hand-held weapons are okay for this. You may even toss A frag grenade at any "buildables" you find. Do NOT throw every grenade you have in there under any circumstances.
While there are differing opinions on what you can do if you're attacked by a freshly spawning player, I <recommend> that your safest option is to not shoot back until you have exited the area. Different admins look at this differently. Some would still consider it a "cheap kill", some won't. It's better to just not get into a fight with someone you didn't chase in, than to risk the punishment.
http://i.imgur.com/9HFxGKy.jpg
Camping the "Respawn door"(the door between where you spawn at, and the actual resupply) is 100% bannable. There is no other reason to do so, except going for "cheap kills". Period.
The two biggest classes that have issues in the Sniper Side respawn are Demo, and Medic. So let me touch on Medics for a moment.
If you chase someone in, you MAY infect/attack that player only. At that point, it is your choice to either continue the fight, or get out. However, you must be careful to not directly infect a newly spawned player. Given that infection spreads, you're probably better off just getting out and letting the chaos ensue. Take out the buildables if you wish/can.
About "Collateral kills": This can happen if you're attacking buildables(most commonly, teleporter entrances), and a newly spawned player runs close to your target. "Intent" here is usually obvious. Wedging a single frag nade under the teleporter, or even between two teleporters close together... then a newly spawned player tries to take the teleporter.... and dies. That's a "collateral kill". You might hear a complaint about it, but it's legal, since the teleporter was obviously your target. This is also why you don't "spam"(throw every grenade you have) in there. "Intent".
"I saw a teleporter on the dropdown side, but missed my jump. I threw a single frag grenade up to try and take it out."
I would have to search through(watch) hundreds of demos to find it.... but I did see Drippy- say that IF a teleporter was present(and you KNOW it), one frag grenade is acceptable. I've based my views on this topic on that, ever since.
Let's be clear... there are those who weren't on when Drippy- said that, and he's never stated it on the forums(and no, I'm not asking him to now). So, again, your mileage may vary. Especially if there's no teleporter present.
"I'm out of frag nades, can I use a class grenade just this once?"
No. Do not under any circumstances, use a "class specific" grenade in there. Concussion grenades, you may(!) get away with, as they cause no actual damage. ONE Spy pill at the dropdown is legal(see Main Respawn exit rules). Inside, I wouldn't chance it. No MIRVs, no EMPs, no Nail Grenades, etc. If you don't have a frag grenade, move on, die, and come back with one.
"Does the "it takes time to set/build 'rule'" count in there?"
No. Setting a detpack, or building a Sentry Gun/dispenser is directly going for "cheap kills". Don't do it.
Right.... so with all that in mind, be aware that Drippy- is always watching. If you screw up, even by accident, you're subject to whatever punishment he feels is necessary. Other admins may interpret the "don't go for cheap kills" rule differently, and this post is not intended to be a "perfect clarification" of said rule. It is intended as a guideline to help you determine what actions you may be able to take in a risky situation.
Myself, I recommend not even trying to "walk a fine line" here. If you chase someone in, deal with them and GTFO. If you're going in to destroy buildables, get them with as little collateral damage as possible, and GTFO.
If you're on the "receiving end" of an invader, use !report if they do something you feel was an infraction of the rules. While I'm on, I have no problem dropping into spectate to determine "intent". Hell, I do it more frequently than most of you know. Yes, I'd rather be playing.... but I accepted the responsibility of Admin to keep the server a fun place to play. It is not something I take lightly.
I've been Admin for a few months, now.... and I've taken notes on several player's "habits". I know what patterns you've played with, even if you don't. I've noted not just your player name, but your Steam ID as well, so as not to get similar names mixed up(particularly those who use (x)Player to try and remain incognito). I've noted any prior punishments you've received, and how many hours you've played.
I shouldn't need to cover this part, but I will, just because:
Less than 50 hours: Not "officially" a Regular, tends to get benefit of the doubt where rules are concerned.
Over 50 hours: You're a Regular, and should know the rules. !warning or !kick if no pattern of offenses. Ban length determined by history.
Over 200 hours: You're a Super-Regular, and should know the rules of the server. Expect 5 days with no warning for a serious infraction... less if you have no history of "bad behavior".
Questions and comments are welcome. | |
|
|
XenOz3r0xT
Super Regular
Shotgun Quick
Draw
| | P: | 10/10/2016 16:24 EST |
| | |
Too long....but I did read. I thought that was common knowledge. There should be a set constant rule and be done with. Too many people interpret things differently. I think that would make it easier. | |
|
|
Mr. Walnuts
Daycare Manager
Pipey FlagCatcher
|  | | P: | 10/10/2016 16:37 EST |
| | |
He didn't read it. There's no pictures.
| |
|
| |
| | |
Believe it or not, there are those who don't quite "get it". Some are new players who don't know... but there are a few "Regulars" who file !reports after they've been chased in and killed. They also seem to think that the Deck Door is under the same rule as Main Respawn... which simply isn't true.
The "set constant" rule is "Don't go for cheap kills from freshly spawning players".
I put disclaimers in the post, because I didn't want anyone to come out and say, "But Iggy said in his post....." to justify something I didn't cover. Which I've seen people try to do when Drippy- has tried to clarify things before. They want to "micro-define" the rule(which isn't going to happen) so they can go after "justifiable cheap kills" and pad their stats... because "it's not stated as against the rules, so it's legal!".
In a way, it's kinda like the "racism" thing..... there's been a player on with the name, "I'm a nigger don't be racist". No complaints have been filed over it(though, Elf Poo mentioned it the other night), so I let it go until it becomes a disruption. Stunner would probably(if history is any indication) ask him to change his name and !kick him if he doesn't. He's not calling anyone a nigger, nor being obnoxious with the word... so who cares? Someone constantly spamming the word, I'll deal with.
Plus, I'm trying to stimulate some posting here. ;)
| |
|
| |
| | |
| Mr. Walnuts wrote:
He didn't read it. There's no pictures.
| |
Yes there are.... you just can't embed them in posts here. I put links, if you look. :p | |
|
|
-[IBSC]-iLluSiON-
Daycare Manager
Killer Scout
| | | P: | 10/10/2016 18:15 EST | | E: | 10/10/2016 18:16 EST |
| | |
I reported that racist name a few weeks ago just to be on the safe side. Wasn't sure if it was against the rules or not. Doesn't really bother me per se; however they were trying to be edgy and probably get a rise out of people. | |
|
|
Ignorant_Florist
Daycare Manager
Pipebomb Monkey
| | | P: | 10/10/2016 19:17 EST | | E: | 10/11/2016 17:20 EST |
| | |
| Drippy- has stated that if they aren't being disruptive, and no one is "offended", it falls under "Admin's discretion".
| |
It doesn't matter if someone is offended or not. People get offended at the most minor shit nowadays, or simply lie about it.
| |
|
|
blacksheiladog
Super Regular
Heavy Flag
Percher
| | | P: | 10/10/2016 19:34 EST | | E: | 10/10/2016 19:49 EST |
| | |
I'm not trying to be a brown nose, but I thought the original post was well written, informative, and helpful. Thanks Iggy. And before Walnuts says what I think he will say, I will say "YES SIR" right now.
I've said my peace with regard to racist names in the past. If I was an admin, I would warn such people to change the name in a PM, then if they don't, I would kick. I think racist crap is something we need to move past as a society. The Gay stuff will take longer...
And I've also said that us super regulars can save Drippy and the Admins grief by trying to handle a rule breaker informally. I have found that PM's to the offender often work, if polite and to the point. The person is not called out publicly, and if they really didn't know the rule, will be appreciative that you didn't humiliate them. | |
|
| |
| | |
| I've said my peace with regard to racist names in the past. If I was an admin, I would warn such people to change the name in a PM, then if they don't, I would kick. I think racist crap is something we need to move past as a society. The Gay stuff will take longer... | |
No "brown-nosing" detected. :p Racism, like homophobia, will go away eventually, if you just shake your head, and not react to it. Once you start making an issue out of it, that's when the instigator smiles, because he's scored a victory(gotten you upset about it). At least, the "passive" version(such as the name we're discussing).
Someone actively calling another player a derogatory name(by whichever definition you choose), is crossing the line. I usually "let it go" with a "Be nice", or similar comment. If they are friends, and it's a joke, the recipient of the name calling will speak up about that.
If it continues, I'll say something if it starts to get disruptive. Taunts are totally fine. Hell, I taunt with the best of them. But don't bring race, gender, orientation, etc into it.
Plus, "context" is applicable here... there's a difference between
"Running to respawn in the middle of a fight? How gay!"
and
"Fucking faggot! Don't run away like a little cunt!"
| And I've also said that us super regulars can save Drippy and the Admins grief by trying to handle a rule breaker informally. I have found that PM's to the offender often work, if polite and to the point. The person is not called out publicly, and if they really didn't know the rule, will be appreciative that you didn't humiliate them. | |
| Less than 50 hours: Not "officially" a Regular, tends to get benefit of the doubt where rules are concerned.
Over 50 hours: You're a Regular, and should know the rules. !warning or !kick if no pattern of offenses. Ban length determined by history.
Over 200 hours: You're a Super-Regular, and should know the rules of the server. Expect 5 days with no warning for a serious infraction... less if you have no history of "bad behavior". | |
The "hours" definitions were established by Drippy-, that wasn't some arbitrary thing I came up with. #justsaying
If I were, I'd add an "over 1000 hours" definition. Probably some kind of silly title like "d2f Junkie", or something.
To your PM point, remember.... anyone can type "status" in console, and get another player's Steam ID. Copy it, Alt-Tab out of the game, come here to this site, go into "Stats/ranks", and paste the ID into the search window. You will bring up the user's stats page, and determine if a PM will work by their number of hours(see chart above).
Generally, newer players(under 20 hours) will appreciate a "heads up" to rules. It's usually the "Regulars" that either cop an attitude, or just ignore you. That's where !report comes in. Hell, even as an Admin I'll !msg a player if they are relatively new to the server.
Not gonna lie, I'm surprised I haven't seen a "I got a bullshit ban" thread with my name attached to it. As a self-imposed rule, I spectate for a bit to determine intent. So, if I drop the hammer on you, you deserved it. | |
|
| |
| | |
Must be because you are being fair | |
|
|
Mr. Walnuts
Daycare Manager
Pipey FlagCatcher
| | | P: | 10/11/2016 14:34 EST | | E: | 10/11/2016 14:37 EST |
| | |
| I'm not trying to be a brown nose, but I thought the original post was well written, informative, and helpful. | |
| No "brown-nosing" detected. | |
| Must be because you are being fair | |
O
MFG!
!name Wally the Obsequious [D2F] Cow | |
|
| |
| | |
That's a pretty big word for this group | |
|
|
Ignorant_Florist
Daycare Manager
Pipebomb Monkey
| | | P: | 10/12/2016 00:26 EST | | E: | 10/12/2016 13:18 EST |
| | |
| Ignorant_Florist wrote:
| Drippy- has stated that if they aren't being disruptive, and no one is "offended", it falls under "Admin's discretion".
| |
It doesn't matter if someone is offended or not. People get offended at the most minor shit nowadays, or simply lie about it.
| |
Wait....what?
Edit: Little bit of shenanigans going on, I think.... but point taken. :) | |
|
| |
| | |
Something else I want to add, and it's something Drippy- said to me a long time ago:
"Yelling at a new player and calling them a 'fucking idiot' won't entice them to not do something. It will likely make them leave thinking the server is full of assholes, or want to do it more simply out of spite." (more or less, I did paraphrase.)
And it's true. Which is why when someone on my team "yells" at a newbie, I tell them to calm down and then try to explain to the new player that "going in respawn while infected will only spread it to others on your team. Only a Medic can cure you of it."
Look, I've been playing here a very long time. I've seen people come and go. I put a bind in, and I try to hit it at least once per match, pointing to this site. Our community is strong, but small. I've seen the forums sit for days without a single post, and I want to do something about that. Getting new players to not only keep playing on our server is important, but bringing some of them into our community is also important.
TFC is a very old game, Hell, it's almost old enough to vote. The fact that it's STILL selling(even if mostly when on sale), while it's "successor", TF2 is FTP(free to play) says quite a bit. The gameplay is pretty well balanced, and the learning curve(as I tell new people) is pretty extensive. I tell them to "stick with it, it takes time to learn". I'm also more than willing to help teach new players some basic skills to help them along. I also tell them that "we were all new to the game once, and we got our asses handed to us as well".
Aside from valvE needing to fix a bug in crossover2, the ONLY thing I wish they'd add, is a secondary "voice chat" option. One that would allow 1 button for "team voice" and 1 for "global voice". As it stands, servers control voice chat to either "all talk"(server wide), or "team talk", which is team only.
New players, no matter their age, or gaming experience, or skill level, are needed to keep our server and our community alive. | |
|
|
blacksheiladog
Super Regular
Heavy Flag
Percher
| | | P: | 10/13/2016 17:08 EST | | E: | 10/13/2016 17:11 EST |
| | |
It's not so much the game itself, but the fun of teamwork and those funny moments and playing with folks you know, all in a server that is well controlled. I second the notion that we need to be welcoming of new players. Answer their questions in a friendly way, even if you think the question is stupid. Encourage and educate new players that are on a losing streak and they will become the new regulars you want to play with. Above all, avoid the tendency to be a clique and ask yourself how you would feel joining our server for the first time. Let them know about the forums and how to join, and that they can get a lot of info from typing !help in game. | |
|
| | | Forums > D2F Discussion (Archives) > Sniper side respawn | |
