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Defense bias to 2fort? rethinking the basement resupply
 
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Backalleybuttlove
Regular
Strategic Sentry
Placer

P: 04/07/2021 08:22 EST
   
Poll: Does the basement resupply need tweaking to fix a perceived 2fort defense bias?
No. And sacrilege! 2fort is perfect as is! (89%)
Yes. But just remove the grenade pack
Yes. Removing items from the basement resup sounds like a good idea (11%)
Yes. Just need to increase respawn time of basement resupply items
Yes. But just remove the health and armor
Time remaining: 10 days. 9 total votes. Vote for an option by clicking on it.
gg#4 in another thread commented how he thinks 2fort has a defense bias. I was wondering what other people thought of this. I'm inclined to agree. Especially in matches where there are more than 10 people on a team; it takes a lot of skill to get passed experienced demos and well placed sentries. It is the small choke points of the spiral and elevator entrance that confers this bias but the big thing I think is also the ammo, health, armor and especially the grenade packs in the basement resupply. Defense players in the basement can fend off often already weakened offense players then quickly retreat back to the basement resupply for more health, ammo, armor and grenades. All that hard work to get passed The Big Dawg, Jodi's 1337 sniping skills only to be EMP'd by Mr.Yo as you cross the threshold into the basement after he just restocked his nades, health and armor.

I was wondering what people thought about either eliminating ammo, health kits, grenades and armor from the basement resupply or, if possible, increasing their respawn times or just getting rid of the nades or the armor and health. The idea being that the defense has to go all the way back to the two respawns if they want to resupply or have to wait in the basement resupply a good amount of time till there is health, ammo and armor and potentially rely on a defense medic for healing and actually use dispensers for ammo and not just for traps. Or, perhaps just remove the health packs and nades. In the removal scenario you could also see teleporters from the empty basement resupply to the main respawns so as to resupply more quickly and likewise have teleporters from the respawns to the resupply, a sort of two-way system at work. The idea being to fix what seemingly is a defense bias.

Then again, maybe that's the whole point. Capturing the flag is supposed to be difficult.
  
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[SHS]Hitz
Super Regular
Killer Scout

P: 04/07/2021 09:16 EST
E: 04/07/2021 09:19 EST
    There’s nothing wrong with debate, but you have to remember that 2Fort (thus Drippy’s) is very popular for a reason and that reason is the map is perfect. Issues only arise when top players are playing. Then it’s biased towards the top tier offence OR top tier defence.

You have to have strategy when facing a good defence. You can’t go in one at a time and get picked off one by one. That’s why you may find it hard to get past me when I’m camping (as a sniper!!) in the basement. Any co-ordinated attack (i.e. one goes spiral, one goes elevator) will result in a single defender being beaten (eventually). Even if I survive a two-pronged attack, I’m now rattled. So, attack that way again and again and you’ve got the flag up the spiral. Speed is also the key. The likes of Brah can be back in the basement in 10 seconds. So, that relentless attacking will eventually wear the defenders down. If it takes you 30 seconds to get back to the basement, then I’m calmed down, resupplied and ready to go. Speed is key.

Now, let’s say there are a few decent defenders down there. Life’s good for them, they’re picking off lone attackers, or doing well versus a few decent opponents.... what do you do then? Well, you can constantly build teleporters in their base, rattle them with banzai EMP charges, spy grens, demoman mirvs and pipes and medic infections. You rattle them, distract them, fuck them up, bully them as they respawn upstairs i.e. you get in their face and fuck up their concentration and nerves (that’s why I have my silly binds... they’re mostly just for fun, but they can also rattle top players who get angry easy... although, they CAN mute me of course).

One of my favourite tricks, to cause a distraction, is to enter the base (still as sniper, or maybe spy or engy) and just run around distracting new spawns (getting their attention and then running away, then running back pressing my “Heal Me” button to get their attention again). Before I know it, the defence is distracted and the flag is now in play and is halfway up the spiral. I’ve done my job, I’ve created a distraction and it’s helped the offence to do better. Then I run back to my base to camp the basement again!

That’s all there is too it... more team work, and a willingness to die while inflicting EMP and MIRV kills on the defence. Go all banzai on the motherfuckers. Then distract them upstairs and you’ve got a broken defence. Then you laugh at the rage quits :)
  
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JiK MAZZ
Super Regular
Pro Engineer

P: 04/07/2021 10:35 EST
    I think I agree with 100% of what Hitz just said. When I'm on basement D, if the pressure isn't high then it probably means the other team has good defense. In that case I always run to the other base and build teles and just blow shit up to weaken the enemy and cause distraction, giving O players a little help to get to the flag room.  
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JiK MAZZ
Super Regular
Pro Engineer

P: 04/07/2021 10:41 EST
    I'm going to hate myself if you all agree, but maybe reducing the engy limit would be a better option. Instead of 5 make it 3 max. With no more than 3 engies and 2 HWs some people would be forced to get better at soldier on defense. Or maybe we'd end up with 8 demos on every team lol. I didn't think it through so much so maybe it's a bad idea but I've definitely noticed it's common to have 4 or 5 engies on a team when the server is full and that's a LOT of defensive power with EMPs, SGs, dispensers, multiple D teles etc.  
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Help
Super Regular
Crack-Powered Capper

P: 04/07/2021 10:54 EST
    2fort doesn’t need any changes. The issue is it’s a small map and the server has a 26 player cap. Drippy usually runs smoothly until about 18 players. After that it becomes a mess.  
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gg#4
Super Regular
Killer Scout

P: 04/07/2021 11:23 EST
    This poll is missing reduced engineer cap and no teleporters in basement resupply.  
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Vishus
Super Regular
Killer Scout

P: 04/07/2021 11:25 EST
    Allowing grenades to det in the basement resupply in order to destroy teles is the only thing that would get my vote.  
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straightcashhomie
P: 04/07/2021 11:47 EST
   
gg#4 wrote:
This poll is missing reduced engineer cap and no teleporters in basement resupply.
Won't change.
But yes, 2 less engies, no teles in basement respawn.
  
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Backalleybuttlove
Regular
Strategic Sentry
Placer

P: 04/07/2021 12:48 EST
E: 04/07/2021 12:49 EST
   
gg#4 wrote:
This poll is missing reduced engineer cap and no teleporters in basement resupply.
I should have added that, along with "yes, there's a bias, but it's part of the game, deal with it."

I voted no items in the basement resup. I think that would force more movement with defensive players, forcing them to go back to the respawns to heal/resupply rather than having the warm cushy uterus that is the basement resupply to crawl back into. They would also have to coordinate amongst themselves to ensure there are at least some d players in the basement.

There are a lot of very good defense players here who often have amazing kill streaks that, to be quite honest, I think is contingent on constantly getting health kits and restocking grenades from the basement resupply.

I think it'd be interesting to see what the dynamic of the game would be like if there were no items or even no basement resupply at all.

@Vishus, as of now, nades thrown in the basement resupply won't damage teleporters? I'm assuming if that's the case then they also don't damage players?
  
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sp0t
Super Regular
Flaming Rocket
Dancer

P: 04/07/2021 13:27 EST
    Frankly, a game where everyone has to be "Random" class would be better
  
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Vishus
Super Regular
Killer Scout

P: 04/07/2021 13:39 EST
E: 04/07/2021 13:39 EST
   
Backalleybuttlove wrote:
@Vishus, as of now, nades thrown in the basement resupply won't damage teleporters? I'm assuming if that's the case then they also don't damage players?
That's right. They act just as they do when tossed into the main spawn - vanish with no damage.

To not allow teles in the basement resupply would defeat the main purpose of the teles and would arguably disadvantage defense too much. However, allowing the teles to be destroyed by means other than actually entering the basement resupply and shooting them down, could provide just enough of an offset to increase the number of caps that could occur during games.

I liken it to when the NHL brought in new rules to reduce the size of the goalie pads a few years back in an effort to increase the number of goals scored. </quote>
  
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[SHS]Hitz
Super Regular
Killer Scout

P: 04/07/2021 13:58 EST
    Yeah, maybe a reduction in Engineers (to 3) would help. And I’d also agree to allow grenades to detonate in the lower respawn.  
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Ignorant_Florist
Daycare Manager
Pipebomb Monkey

P: 04/07/2021 14:15 EST
   
Vishus wrote:
Allowing grenades to det in the basement resupply in order to destroy teles is the only thing that would get my vote.
This. Or, on the flip side, put a no_build trigger in there, so nothing can be built in there.

Remember, when that map was designed, teleporters weren't a thing in TFC. That happened when the Steam Conversion took place. Up until then, there were no teleporters in the game.

While they don't "break" the game in and of themselves... having an almost undestroyable pathway to the basement does mess with the balance.

  
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Backalleybuttlove
Regular
Strategic Sentry
Placer

P: 04/07/2021 14:44 EST
    @Vishus, is that something custom for this server or across the board for TFC? The no nade detonation in the basement resupply and main spawn, that is.

@Iggy, interesting about the teleporters not being in pre-Steam TFC. I find the teleporters from the main spawns to the resup less problematic than basement campers being able to constantly get health packs and restock grenades.

It just dawned on me, the more I think about it I think maybe a more diplomatic solution to any perceived defensive bias would be to make the basement resupply available to offense players as well and of course taking out the auto-cannon. In addition to defending the flag the defense must also defend their access to the basement resupply.
  
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[SHS]Hitz
Super Regular
Killer Scout

P: 04/07/2021 15:06 EST
    "make the basement resupply available to offense players..."

No way bro, that's too radical. No SG's in there and the ability for enemy grenades to detonate in there would be good enough imo.
  
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