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 | Defense bias to 2fort? rethinking the basement resupply | |
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Have not read any of the text above yet, but short answer is:
Yes.
The choke points are narrow.
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 | Backalleybuttlove wrote:
@Vishus, is that something custom for this server or across the board for TFC? The no nade detonation in the basement resupply and main spawn, that is.
@Iggy, interesting about the teleporters not being in pre-Steam TFC. I find the teleporters from the main spawns to the resup less problematic than basement campers being able to constantly get health packs and restock grenades.
It just dawned on me, the more I think about it I think maybe a more diplomatic solution to any perceived defensive bias would be to make the basement resupply available to offense players as well and of course taking out the auto-cannon. In addition to defending the flag the defense must also defend their access to the basement resupply. | |
Teleporters weren't originally in TFC. Back in the WON(World Opponent Network) days, we had to boot up Half Life, then activate the "mod" in question(in this case, TFC).... then find servers matching the search parameters. It was a much different time.
That was pre-2004, when the conversion to Steam happened. I'm sure there is video footage out there showing what it looked like. I'll try to remember to look for some and post it. | |
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Help
Super Regular
Crack-Powered Capper
|  | | P: | 04/07/2021 21:28 EST |
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| Ignorant_Florist wrote:
| Vishus wrote:
Allowing grenades to det in the basement resupply in order to destroy teles is the only thing that would get my vote. | |
This. Or, on the flip side, put a no_build trigger in there, so nothing can be built in there.
Remember, when that map was designed, teleporters weren't a thing in TFC. That happened when the Steam Conversion took place. Up until then, there were no teleporters in the game.
While they don't "break" the game in and of themselves... having an almost undestroyable pathway to the basement does mess with the balance.
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Still think the map is fine. It has always been one of the most popular, if not the most popular map for public servers for the whole history of TFC. With that said, this would be my suggestion if forced to change.
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Like I said, Help... as designed, and within the parameters it was designed under... yeah, totally fine.
However, adding teleporters to the dynamic altered the balance of the map. The basement resupply was never a "respawn" point. Allowing teleporters to be nearly indestructible in there basically turns it into one.
Defensive players had a small room to get health, ammo and armour. But if they got killed, it would take them time to get back down there, until teleporters were added to the game. With that addition, the respawn furthest away from the basement, suddenly becomes the easiest route down to it. | |
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bella
Regular
Spaz Sniper
| | | P: | 04/08/2021 00:51 EST |
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| JiK MAZZ wrote:
I'm going to hate myself if you all agree, but maybe reducing the engy limit would be a better option. Instead of 5 make it 3 max. With no more than 3 engies and 2 HWs some people would be forced to get better at soldier on defense. Or maybe we'd end up with 8 demos on every team lol. I didn't think it through so much so maybe it's a bad idea but I've definitely noticed it's common to have 4 or 5 engies on a team when the server is full and that's a LOT of defensive power with EMPs, SGs, dispensers, multiple D teles etc. | |
Gotta love it when there's 5 engies and only 1 sg in the basement. The others are in useless spots like the bridge, sniper deck, and in the corner of the main entrance
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@Iggy, I played during the WON days, mostly CS though. I probably spent 3/4ths my waking teenage existence on WON. I was a CS fanboy to the extent that I made my own CS map. I was very spiteful towards valve back when they dropped support for WON and Steam was extremely buggy to the point that it wouldn't work on my computer. I played CS on WON2 servers for awhile, a couple Dutch guys successfully revamped WON and called it WON2. It's for the most part dead now. There was a great half life deathmatch mod server on there. It had a nice niche online community kind of like TFC today. Almost parallel in that there was only two, three real active servers. Eventually Steam worked properly and I ended my spite streak.
@Bella, totally. That's one of the advantages of engineer, have an sg up in the basement and for D and go help out on offense.
@[SHS]Hitz, in games less than 8v8/9v9 I'm inclined to agree. However I don't think it'd be too radical in games where lots of people are playing. Chances are offensive players have already incurred damage getting to the elevator. Defense players have the advantage of hearing them fall. | |
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JiK MAZZ
Super Regular
WMD Creator
| | | P: | 04/08/2021 12:32 EST |
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I quit TFC shortly before Steam was a thing and I didn't start again until March 2020. So I was totally unaware that teleporters existed all that time. I used to take turns playing with two friends - one in the hot seat and the other two watching, then swap every few minutes. I was excited to find our stats were captured at least for the time we played on Drippy's.
hOOTer (WON:911965) | |
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9x
| | P: | 04/08/2021 17:08 EST |
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dont for get the demo's at every turn.
As for the telly in basement resupply i wouldn't be opposed to it being a unbuildable zone. let em build it right out side or anywhere but the room it self. | |
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gravy bowl
Super Regular
Napalm Suicider
| | | P: | 04/13/2021 21:48 EST |
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Instead of strategy I prefer my usual style of running forward and dying. | |
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kyree
Super Regular
Killer Scout
| | | P: | 04/16/2021 05:17 EST |
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Lmao I don't throw grenades.. I hold em and try to hug you | |
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Good ol' TFC suicide bombing. | |
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JiK MAZZ
Super Regular
WMD Creator
| | | P: | 04/16/2021 10:02 EST |
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If you're not willing to do that to stop a flag leaving the basement, you're not playing the right game. | |
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kyree
Super Regular
Killer Scout
| | | P: | 04/16/2021 17:37 EST |
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| Backalleybuttlove wrote:
| gg#4 wrote:
This poll is missing reduced engineer cap and no teleporters in basement resupply. | |
I should have added that, along with "yes, there's a bias, but it's part of the game, deal with it."
I voted no items in the basement resup. I think that would force more movement with defensive players, forcing them to go back to the respawns to heal/resupply rather than having the warm cushy uterus that is the basement resupply to crawl back into. They would also have to coordinate amongst themselves to ensure there are at least some d players in the basement.
There are a lot of very good defense players here who often have amazing kill streaks that, to be quite honest, I think is contingent on constantly getting health kits and restocking grenades from the basement resupply.
I think it'd be interesting to see what the dynamic of the game would be like if there were no items or even no basement resupply at all.
@Vishus, as of now, nades thrown in the basement resupply won't damage teleporters? I'm assuming if that's the case then they also don't damage players? | |
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kyree
Super Regular
Killer Scout
| | | P: | 04/16/2021 17:39 EST | | E: | 04/16/2021 17:47 EST |
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| Backalleybuttlove wrote:
| gg#4 wrote:
This poll is missing reduced engineer cap and no teleporters in basement resupply. | |
I should have added that, along with "yes, there's a bias, but it's part of the game, deal with it."
I voted no items in the basement resup. I think that would force more movement with defensive players, forcing them to go back to the respawns to heal/resupply rather than having the warm cushy uterus that is the basement resupply to crawl back into. They would also have to coordinate amongst themselves to ensure there are at least some d players in the basement.
There are a lot of very good defense players here who often have amazing kill streaks that, to be quite honest, I think is contingent on constantly getting health kits and restocking grenades from the basement resupply.
I think it'd be interesting to see what the dynamic of the game would be like if there were no items or even no basement resupply at all.
@Vishus, as of now, nades thrown in the basement resupply won't damage teleporters? I'm assuming if that's the case then they also don't damage players? | |
I beg to differ maybe nades in spawn don't do damage, but nades outside of spawn do damage in spawn.. For someone that builds teles for a living, I see it happen all the time.. And I'm not even sure the door has to be open to deal the damage
I know you can't toss nades into spawn as the will just fizzle, but you can emp and mirv outside, and it will do damage... As well it should
The mere fact that I can instantly respawn and be back in the basement is bullshit... Which is why I go into sniper spawn and take teles down.. It didn't always used to be like this... I also love building teles in enemy sniper spawn... People forget what color they are playing on
OH, and Ty Blind Sniper for showing me how to build an SG above resupply | |
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| Forums > D2F Discussion (Archives) > Defense bias to 2fort? rethinking the basement resupply |
