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Defense bias to 2fort? rethinking the basement resupply
 
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-[IBSC]-iLluSiON-
Super Regular
Killer Scout

P: 04/07/2021 18:01 EST
    Have not read any of the text above yet, but short answer is:

Yes.

The choke points are narrow.
  
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Ignorant_Florist
Daycare Manager
Pipebomb Monkey

P: 04/07/2021 18:30 EST
   
Backalleybuttlove wrote:
@Vishus, is that something custom for this server or across the board for TFC? The no nade detonation in the basement resupply and main spawn, that is.

@Iggy, interesting about the teleporters not being in pre-Steam TFC. I find the teleporters from the main spawns to the resup less problematic than basement campers being able to constantly get health packs and restock grenades.

It just dawned on me, the more I think about it I think maybe a more diplomatic solution to any perceived defensive bias would be to make the basement resupply available to offense players as well and of course taking out the auto-cannon. In addition to defending the flag the defense must also defend their access to the basement resupply.
Teleporters weren't originally in TFC. Back in the WON(World Opponent Network) days, we had to boot up Half Life, then activate the "mod" in question(in this case, TFC).... then find servers matching the search parameters. It was a much different time.

That was pre-2004, when the conversion to Steam happened. I'm sure there is video footage out there showing what it looked like. I'll try to remember to look for some and post it.
  
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Help
Super Regular
Crack-Powered Capper

P: 04/07/2021 21:28 EST
   
Ignorant_Florist wrote:
Vishus wrote:
Allowing grenades to det in the basement resupply in order to destroy teles is the only thing that would get my vote.
This. Or, on the flip side, put a no_build trigger in there, so nothing can be built in there.

Remember, when that map was designed, teleporters weren't a thing in TFC. That happened when the Steam Conversion took place. Up until then, there were no teleporters in the game.

While they don't "break" the game in and of themselves... having an almost undestroyable pathway to the basement does mess with the balance.

Still think the map is fine. It has always been one of the most popular, if not the most popular map for public servers for the whole history of TFC. With that said, this would be my suggestion if forced to change.
  
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Ignorant_Florist
Daycare Manager
Pipebomb Monkey

P: 04/07/2021 22:50 EST
    Like I said, Help... as designed, and within the parameters it was designed under... yeah, totally fine.

However, adding teleporters to the dynamic altered the balance of the map. The basement resupply was never a "respawn" point. Allowing teleporters to be nearly indestructible in there basically turns it into one.

Defensive players had a small room to get health, ammo and armour. But if they got killed, it would take them time to get back down there, until teleporters were added to the game. With that addition, the respawn furthest away from the basement, suddenly becomes the easiest route down to it.
  
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bella
P: 04/08/2021 00:51 EST
   
JiK MAZZ wrote:
I'm going to hate myself if you all agree, but maybe reducing the engy limit would be a better option. Instead of 5 make it 3 max. With no more than 3 engies and 2 HWs some people would be forced to get better at soldier on defense. Or maybe we'd end up with 8 demos on every team lol. I didn't think it through so much so maybe it's a bad idea but I've definitely noticed it's common to have 4 or 5 engies on a team when the server is full and that's a LOT of defensive power with EMPs, SGs, dispensers, multiple D teles etc.
Gotta love it when there's 5 engies and only 1 sg in the basement. The others are in useless spots like the bridge, sniper deck, and in the corner of the main entrance
  
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Backalleybuttlove
Regular
Strategic Sentry
Placer

P: 04/08/2021 06:28 EST
    @Iggy, I played during the WON days, mostly CS though. I probably spent 3/4ths my waking teenage existence on WON. I was a CS fanboy to the extent that I made my own CS map. I was very spiteful towards valve back when they dropped support for WON and Steam was extremely buggy to the point that it wouldn't work on my computer. I played CS on WON2 servers for awhile, a couple Dutch guys successfully revamped WON and called it WON2. It's for the most part dead now. There was a great half life deathmatch mod server on there. It had a nice niche online community kind of like TFC today. Almost parallel in that there was only two, three real active servers. Eventually Steam worked properly and I ended my spite streak.

@Bella, totally. That's one of the advantages of engineer, have an sg up in the basement and for D and go help out on offense.

@[SHS]Hitz, in games less than 8v8/9v9 I'm inclined to agree. However I don't think it'd be too radical in games where lots of people are playing. Chances are offensive players have already incurred damage getting to the elevator. Defense players have the advantage of hearing them fall.
  
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JiK MAZZ
Super Regular
Pro Engineer

P: 04/08/2021 12:32 EST
    I quit TFC shortly before Steam was a thing and I didn't start again until March 2020. So I was totally unaware that teleporters existed all that time. I used to take turns playing with two friends - one in the hot seat and the other two watching, then swap every few minutes. I was excited to find our stats were captured at least for the time we played on Drippy's.

hOOTer (WON:911965)
  
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9x
P: 04/08/2021 17:08 EST
    dont for get the demo's at every turn.

As for the telly in basement resupply i wouldn't be opposed to it being a unbuildable zone. let em build it right out side or anywhere but the room it self.
  
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