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 | A petition to ban chopping | |
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 | Ignorant_Florist wrote:
Maybe, but that would pretty much be up to Drippy- to do. Trust me, Admins have a lot more important shit to watch out for than someone getting a speed boost.
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People chopping on landings isn't a big deal, but napkin did it across entire floors. I never saw brah do it more than off landings, personally. | |
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[SHS]Hitz
Super Regular
Killer Scout
|  | | P: | 07/16/2021 20:16 EST |
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Chopping off (any) landing is most of the actual problem. There's never an "ok" time to chop. It's either ALL acceptable, or it's not acceptable at all. | |
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| Any negatives are only affecting about six people, so the trade-off to some people’s enjoyment is worth it. | |
Guessing you polled the entire player database to come up with that number? I doubt you even believe it yourself. By "enjoyment", I think we all know you mean you being able to kill those people more easily.
You can't cope with something, so rather than put in the work it takes to learn how to defeat it, you want no one else to be able to go fast enough for *you* not to be able to shoot them anymore.
Stop assuming so few people know and use advanced game mechanics here, just because you don't, or can't.
Do you even play offense? Do any concing? You have under 52 hours played as scout and medic combined, out of ~864 hours total here. Only 50 caps between those 2 classes, also.
Have you ever played in any leagues?
In fact, by UGC league rules which many here have played under, chopping was legal as long as you didn't use a script to do it. So was ramp-sliding, sharking, duck-jumping, bhopping, down-pipe / rocket-jump scripts, and jump;wait scripts. All the things that make playing this game fast and challenging.
See for yourself:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061123030347/http://www.ugclea...
I fail to see where you can get off quipping to me about concing and saying things like "There's never an ok time to chop", etc., unless you have the experience to back it up. I'm pretty sure that you're not an authority on those things. I think that until you have gained enough experience concing/sliding or at least just playing offense yourself, that your assertions regarding the matter don't carry much weight at all.
Conversely, I do have considerably more experience playing offense than you, as well as more than double the amount of hours spent here sniping - which seems to be your main class, and personally have never seen any reason to complain about or nerf game physics.
In fact, I think opponents doing the things that you complain about have made me a better sniper, once I started trying to anticipate and deal with what they were doing.
Are you afraid that people will make you look bad if they chop around you or something? Personally, I think it's the other way around, because it's harder to account for a sudden change in speed when they get suddenly capped, than it is to lead someone with a constant speed (unless you're the type of sniper who just holds their dot on the wall, waiting for someone to cross it). Besides, why not focus on hitting them in the air, before they even have a chance to hit the ground and chop?
I've watched plenty of players here go from being mediocre, to monsters, and whether anyone was chopping or not had absolutely nothing to do with their overall accomplishments. They practiced a lot, took their licks, and learned from their mistakes as well as mistakes of others. If they can, so should you.
I mean, for someone who calls themselves, "The Big Dawg" - It sounds like you're saying you can't hang with the way some of them play.
It might be easier to take your arguments as genuine concerns for other players' game play into consideration, if you had any substantial offensive experience to base your assumptions off of. Otherwise, it just looks like your being selfish and
I still think your motivation for suggesting imposing limits is simply to better your stats by slowing offensive players down enough to your style of play, when you should be doing it by working harder. | |
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[SHS]Hitz
Super Regular
Killer Scout
| | | P: | 07/17/2021 23:39 EST |
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I call myself “The Big Dawg” out of irony, because I’m not very good. I’m ok against low/medium skill players, but pretty bad against the good guys. This is a mixture of ping and reflexes. Mostly, I’m just not good enough. That’s why I rarely play of a night (UK time, prime-time USA time), because it gets too intense when the good players are on. Chopping takes it to an extreme level though, by bypassing defences using an exploit. That’s not really fair to the regular players, who are 99.9% of the regular player-base. That’s why Drippy fixed the exploit, and I thank him for his efforts.
Also, I don’t give two hoots about stats, I’m just here for the fun. | |
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Spoofer
Super Regular
WMD Creator
| | P: | 07/17/2021 23:54 EST | | E: | 07/18/2021 00:19 EST |
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Counterpoints:
Chopping came to be banned entirely in STA, TFL, various other NA leagues, IIRC the Euro and Aussie leagues, and currently remains banned in modern competitive such as in TBL, 4GL, and pickups. It's also against the rules on OST, the only other regularly populated non-bot server that doesn't already allow unlimited bhop and trimping (i.e. Evil). UGC did indeed ban scripted chopping, though I'm surprised they even bothered making the distinction.
But, when UGC existed, it was a time when players couldn't inflate their FPS like they can now. Chopping simply with unscripted mousewheel back when 60~100 FPS was the norm couldn't achieve nearly what it can now with much higher values, and was far less reliable. You can see you for yourself if you toy with your FPS the difference it makes. If UGC still existed today, they'd probably fully ban it just like the current leagues in 2021, created by the remnants of UGC's (and others' ) past player base.
There's also no way the admins of this server would want to take the time and distinguish between who's scripting and who's not. Nor would it be fair to only allow those with the best mousewheel to do it IMO, especially when mousewheel quality varies drastically among mice.
Then we again get to the part where chopping creates drastic imbalance involving defensive (and sniping) mechanics, and clearly is an exploit circumventing Valve's speed balancing attempts.
No one gives a shit about sharking because there aren't a ton of applications for it where normal defensive mechanics would be at play (and usually it's used simply to speed up yard/sewer traversal in league maps with no yard combat). It never would be expected for a solly to be able to line up a reliable shot into water to begin with, and same with pipetraps.
Ramp sliding is a natural mechanic performed simply by hitting a ramp at great speed, so it's not like anyone could ban that, and the alternative to pressing duck at the top to slide forward is instead not to, in which case a player pops straight up to be airshot. That's no fun for O. Most importantly, ramp sliding is something that mappers can control, and maps began to be made to intentionally incorporate it as a mechanic where it could be properly balanced. Conversely, mappers have absolutely zero control over chopping or the imbalance it easily creates.
And, to beat the dead horse, I still find the idea of allowing something that's been banned historically throughout the majority of TFC for causing too much of an imbalance due to unchecked speed (used unpredictably), on the one server that finds even vanilla bhop speed to be too OP for its primary player base, rather silly. | |
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Spoofer
Super Regular
WMD Creator
| | P: | 07/18/2021 00:04 EST | | E: | 07/18/2021 00:11 EST |
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So, I'm glad that it's finally been regulated here, just like everywhere else (even if it's less effective on 2fort to begin with). It's fair to point out I don't play Med/Scout much at all, even though I have fun pub Oing a lot with other classes. But I play a shitton of ADL where I could utterly destroy maps with Solly HH chops, and I've always chosen not to because my belief that chopping ruins the game balance (even on D2F) is genuine.
But, I also agree that the cure shouldn't be worse than the disease. So hopefully the kinks get worked out. Like I said before, at least one duck while landing from a flight would probably be a good idea, for all the reasons a player may wish to use one. | |
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moose poop
Super Regular
Body Splatter
| | P: | 07/18/2021 18:52 EST |
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| [d2f]Med-Dick wrote:
| Any negatives are only affecting about six people, so the trade-off to some people’s enjoyment is worth it. | |
Guessing you polled the entire player database to come up with that number? I doubt you even believe it yourself. By "enjoyment", I think we all know you mean you being able to kill those people more easily.
You can't cope with something, so rather than put in the work it takes to learn how to defeat it, you want no one else to be able to go fast enough for *you* not to be able to shoot them anymore.
Stop assuming so few people know and use advanced game mechanics here, just because you don't, or can't.
Do you even play offense? Do any concing? You have under 52 hours played as scout and medic combined, out of ~864 hours total here. Only 50 caps between those 2 classes, also.
Have you ever played in any leagues?
In fact, by UGC league rules which many here have played under, chopping was legal as long as you didn't use a script to do it. So was ramp-sliding, sharking, duck-jumping, bhopping, down-pipe / rocket-jump scripts, and jump;wait scripts. All the things that make playing this game fast and challenging.
See for yourself:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061123030347/http://www.ugclea...
I fail to see where you can get off quipping to me about concing and saying things like "There's never an ok time to chop", etc., unless you have the experience to back it up. I'm pretty sure that you're not an authority on those things. I think that until you have gained enough experience concing/sliding or at least just playing offense yourself, that your assertions regarding the matter don't carry much weight at all.
Conversely, I do have considerably more experience playing offense than you, as well as more than double the amount of hours spent here sniping - which seems to be your main class, and personally have never seen any reason to complain about or nerf game physics.
In fact, I think opponents doing the things that you complain about have made me a better sniper, once I started trying to anticipate and deal with what they were doing.
Are you afraid that people will make you look bad if they chop around you or something? Personally, I think it's the other way around, because it's harder to account for a sudden change in speed when they get suddenly capped, than it is to lead someone with a constant speed (unless you're the type of sniper who just holds their dot on the wall, waiting for someone to cross it). Besides, why not focus on hitting them in the air, before they even have a chance to hit the ground and chop?
I've watched plenty of players here go from being mediocre, to monsters, and whether anyone was chopping or not had absolutely nothing to do with their overall accomplishments. They practiced a lot, took their licks, and learned from their mistakes as well as mistakes of others. If they can, so should you.
I mean, for someone who calls themselves, "The Big Dawg" - It sounds like you're saying you can't hang with the way some of them play.
It might be easier to take your arguments as genuine concerns for other players' game play into consideration, if you had any substantial offensive experience to base your assumptions off of. Otherwise, it just looks like your being selfish and
I still think your motivation for suggesting imposing limits is simply to better your stats by slowing offensive players down enough to your style of play, when you should be doing it by working harder. | |
So....adversity AND integrity. Son, you were born out of time. | |
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| [d2f]Med-Dick wrote:
| Any negatives are only affecting about six people, so the trade-off to some people’s enjoyment is worth it. | |
Guessing you polled the entire player database to come up with that number? I doubt you even believe it yourself. By "enjoyment", I think we all know you mean you being able to kill those people more easily.
You can't cope with something, so rather than put in the work it takes to learn how to defeat it, you want no one else to be able to go fast enough for *you* not to be able to shoot them anymore.
Stop assuming so few people know and use advanced game mechanics here, just because you don't, or can't.
Do you even play offense? Do any concing? You have under 52 hours played as scout and medic combined, out of ~864 hours total here. Only 50 caps between those 2 classes, also.
Have you ever played in any leagues?
In fact, by UGC league rules which many here have played under, chopping was legal as long as you didn't use a script to do it. So was ramp-sliding, sharking, duck-jumping, bhopping, down-pipe / rocket-jump scripts, and jump;wait scripts. All the things that make playing this game fast and challenging.
See for yourself:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061123030347/http://www.ugclea...
I fail to see where you can get off quipping to me about concing and saying things like "There's never an ok time to chop", etc., unless you have the experience to back it up. I'm pretty sure that you're not an authority on those things. I think that until you have gained enough experience concing/sliding or at least just playing offense yourself, that your assertions regarding the matter don't carry much weight at all.
Conversely, I do have considerably more experience playing offense than you, as well as more than double the amount of hours spent here sniping - which seems to be your main class, and personally have never seen any reason to complain about or nerf game physics.
In fact, I think opponents doing the things that you complain about have made me a better sniper, once I started trying to anticipate and deal with what they were doing.
Are you afraid that people will make you look bad if they chop around you or something? Personally, I think it's the other way around, because it's harder to account for a sudden change in speed when they get suddenly capped, than it is to lead someone with a constant speed (unless you're the type of sniper who just holds their dot on the wall, waiting for someone to cross it). Besides, why not focus on hitting them in the air, before they even have a chance to hit the ground and chop?
I've watched plenty of players here go from being mediocre, to monsters, and whether anyone was chopping or not had absolutely nothing to do with their overall accomplishments. They practiced a lot, took their licks, and learned from their mistakes as well as mistakes of others. If they can, so should you.
I mean, for someone who calls themselves, "The Big Dawg" - It sounds like you're saying you can't hang with the way some of them play.
It might be easier to take your arguments as genuine concerns for other players' game play into consideration, if you had any substantial offensive experience to base your assumptions off of. Otherwise, it just looks like your being selfish and
I still think your motivation for suggesting imposing limits is simply to better your stats by slowing offensive players down enough to your style of play, when you should be doing it by working harder. | |
ddddd'aaamnnnnnnnnn
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| Spoofer wrote:
So, I'm glad that it's finally been regulated here, just like everywhere else (even if it's less effective on 2fort to begin with). It's fair to point out I don't play Med/Scout much at all, even though I have fun pub Oing a lot with other classes. But I play a shitton of ADL where I could utterly destroy maps with Solly HH chops, and I've always chosen not to because my belief that chopping ruins the game balance (even on D2F) is genuine.
But, I also agree that the cure shouldn't be worse than the disease. So hopefully the kinks get worked out. Like I said before, at least one duck while landing from a flight would probably be a good idea, for all the reasons a player may wish to use one. | |
It took me about 2 hours to get used to the restrictions. I'm against chopping but you mix in a bhop cap, then an anti-chopping check - you're fucking with the engine too much.
Shame on me for hitting perfect concs into the batts and maintaining my speed. One fucking duck can smooth that transition out and it's not even chopping, that's just applying some regulation to your own speed knowing there is a cap.
Truth be told, I didn't realize it, but I naturally duck off of a conc almost all the time to smooth out the transition back into a bhop. I'm almost sure most people do?
It FEELS clunky.
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Spoofer
Super Regular
WMD Creator
| | P: | 07/19/2021 09:45 EST | | E: | 07/19/2021 09:50 EST |
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The only problem I have is if I flub the speed of a potential ramp slide so that I'm not actually sliding, and then hitting duck will immediately halt me. But if I flubbed the speed to begin with, a single crouch would've slowed me down quickly anyway.
Idk that I often crouch while landing. I don't think I do, unless I'm trying to avoid a sniper shot or something. But I've agreed from the start, it would be nice if that were possible.
A single held duck upon landing won't chop a player at all, since a held duck never makes you airborne. Instead the held duck will actually slow you down, and when timed properly could help people quickly reset below bhop speed to start bhopping, like you say. I just resume bhopping upon landing by adjusting my timing, though.
A tapped duck upon landing will result in the slightest of mini-hops (like if you tap duck behind a box or something to peek your head over). The added distance a player would get from this is inconsequential, so TBL and pickups make it a rule that a single hop is allowed for both this mini-hop and all the reasons you may wish to hold duck like above.
Two ducks upon landing will produce a chop, and cover more distance, and from 2 onward is the typical chop behavior in contention. 4GL used to allow 2, but now they don't even allow 1, IIRC. ?_?
Either way, if drip could somehow find a way to allow 1, that would be the best compromise.
EDIT: I'd also hope that hitting duck while landing from a max speed bhop for whatever class a player is playing, wouldn't likewise slow them down. | |
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That's all I'm asking for really, it wouldn't even matter if bhop cap was lifted because I'd just continue on.
I mean, it's fucking silly. Conc into batts, hit the cap and get halted in front of 5 mother fuckers playing D.
Like, Drippy, you honestly need to handicap this gameplay even more? It's getting WORSE.
Come on guys, this is getting ridiculous. This is coming from me and my movement is top 3 in the server, no question. I feel bad for anyone that's mid-tier trying to navigate this nonsensical restriction. | |
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| | | Forums > Whiners Corner (Archives) > A petition to ban chopping | |
